I have a 6-year-old boy who has some major attitude. He is obnoxious, impulsive and, well, annoying a good majority of the time. He gets into trouble at school for this, on his sports team (from his coaches) for this, at home and when he's over at his friend's house. So clearly he is exhibiting these behaviours all around. I am wondering if anyone has any advice on how to get through to him that enough is enough. He doesn't respect other ppl's personal space and will roll his eyes, stick out his tongue, etc. when he is spoken to by any authoritative figure. (He told his coach to shut up twice yesterday). He lies, even when he knows he's been out and out caught, he will still lie and manipulate things. In the end, when he feels that he can't get out of it, he'll throw a full-out melt down, screaming, crying and kicking anything in sight. He is way to heavy for me to haul him up to his room and he is very obstinate, and won't go willingly. So we get to sit and listen to his melt down until he decides to be finished.  
His defiance has me at the end of my rope. To my knowledge, there is no one in Brandon who specializes in child behaviour such as this (and his pediatrician is out of the question).  
I am not looking for a diagnosis of any sort, just hoping some one has any suggestions on some consequences for his actions/behaviours. I have tried so much, and it works for the moment, but he has yet to learn from them. This kind of tells me that the consequences aren't serious enough. I am so frustrated and at my wits end. His 9 year old brother has had enough and soon he's going to be the kid that everyone avoids b/c of his aweful behaviours. Either that or he's going to be the kid who gets into serious trouble b/c he's so defiant.  
Either way, I need to nip this before any serious results come from it.  
Thanks for reading. Any advice would be so much appreciated.

to hear u are going through this...  
I know when our son behaved very similar to this, everytime he threw a fit...we walked away and left him in that room..if he followed us we left again..  
he did eventually stop. And for him being bad at school or anywhere else we took ALL of his stuff out of his room...all he had was a bed and dresser..That seemed to work for us...yes its a pain in the ass to have to take everything out but it did work..  
As school...do they discpline him there? i know our son got detention...couldnt play outside with the others...that helped him...sorry if i wasnt much help but just giving some ideas on what we did!  
wish u luck!! do u believe in spanking??

say what you are doing for discipline right now.  
 
Do you follow through with your threats? Do you hold punishments for an effective amount of time? Do you give in because you can't stand to listen to him sometimes or because it's just too much work?  
 
What kind of consequences does he usually have now? Taking away his most important things (computer, video games, friends, phones, etc, etc.)?  
 
I would figure out what is the most important thing to him and start eliminating them - and if it comes down to nothing but a bed and a dresser - then go for it. I wouldn't be able to stand having that going on in my home and I don't blame you for feeling overwhelmed.  
 
I know people will disagree - but we did spank when it was warranted.  
 
Have you had him tested for ADD or anything like that? How about the school psychologist?

I don't believe in spanking, in the form of doing so out of anger, but lately I have felt that I've no choice but to give his butt a swat to get his attention. I have done it a couple of times, and it doesn't work either.  
At school, he misses recess (gets his name on the board) and he gets very upset with the teacher, and very disappointed in himself. Yet, he does it over and over and over. It's like he is unable to control his impulses. (I've explored ADD) and it seems that maybe he has some of the characteristics of it. I refuse to medicate him until I have tried everything that I possibly can. I feel so bad for him b/c he takes things so personally (as he should, lol) and he's super sensitive. Like I said before, it's like he can't control himself and then he beats him self up (sometimes literally...he will claw at his face)when he gets into trouble.  
When I take his most prized possesions away from him (DSi and PS) he gets upset to the point that I feel like, YES, this is working...only to have him repeat this behaviour again and again. He was penalized in hockey by his coach for telling him to shut up...coach made him sit out for 2 shifts. My husband and I noticed and so we asked him. SEVERAL times. He lied to us. SEVERAL times. I was approached by the coach today who explained to me why he sat out yesterday. (wish he had of told me yesterday). I confronted my son on his lies and he LIED again!!!! Then he said the coach was lying. I get sooooooo frustrated that I can actually feel my anxiety rising as I type it out here, lol! Ahhhhhhhhhh!

I struggle with "appropriate" consequences for the things that he does. I've always heard that the "consequence needs to fit the action". So if he misbehaves in school or hockey, I can't very well take those away from him. It's his utter lack of respect for authority that gets him in trouble b/c this follows him everywhere. I have kept him from play dates (our neighbours kids are the same age and so they like to have daily playdates) and when I do this, he sits at the window, yelling outside to them or calling them names b/c he's mad he can't be out there. I tell him to get away from the window, he doesn't. I move him away from the window, he throws a hissy fit and as soon as I walk away, he goes back. He could consume my entire after-work hours with his attitude some nights. There have been times that I've managed to get him in his room and then I've held the handle to keep him in there. He gets so completely irrational and uncontrollable when he's upset that there's no way I can communicate to him. So I tell him that when he is done screaming, then I can talk to him, then I walk away. he follows, screaming his irrational thoughts to me.....I could go on and on....but the gyst of it is that he out of control, my anxiety is at it's peak and I worry for my baby's future if I can't get control back.  
My oldest never, ever went through this, and I know that every kid is different, but THIS different?????!!!!

Tough love  
 
Consistency  
 
Boundaries  

 
 
CONSEQUENCES

Your situation sounds familiar to mine when my son was that age. He was diagnosed with adhd, but had allot of the behavior and social issues.  
 
First and foremost we did not receive a guide book to be the best parents around. It is something learned over time. Kids change / we change / environments change, awareness is key and knowledge is power. There are there resources out there.  
 
CATC, Parenting programs available downtown, Child and Family Services....  
 
I found a good recourse from the internet called Total Transformation. I took bits and pieces from this program and put them into place as well as other techniques I have learned over time.  
 
Kids learn to manipulate the their parents. They know how to push buttons and control situations to their favor even though their avenue to get there can be destructive.  
 
I am not a physiologist but I needed to learn a bit about how a child's mind works to be in control and parent in a positive manner.  
 
Don't beat yourself up and I encourage you to find recourses that will help you and your family.  
 
Good luck....  
 
 
 

you are going through this. I had a "tough" boy to raise too and many times was completely at my wits end. He wasn't as "out of control" as your little guy is though. I am going to be totally honest with you and tell you that you both need help. This is not something you can handle on your own. When you said he would scratch and claw at his own face out of frustration all kinds of red flags went up. If you think you are having trouble controlling him now...what is it going to be like when he reaches adolescence?! I am not trying to be harsh but the sooner you get a solid handle on this the better for your entire family. Believe me this will only get worse! Please, for his sake and for yours get him some good, solid behavour management skills and some coping skills for yourself. They may suggest medication. Don't close yourself to the idea. It may be only for a short time - like a bridge - until things are on a better track. Good luck and God Bless!

I am a firm believer in a proper diet. No junk food, no prepared food, no pop, no sugary cereal. If these foods are in your daily diet, try weeding them out slowly, start on veggies, salads, tuna, etc. You know what a healthy diet should consist of. Its an easy step, some kids react badly to processed foods. Good luck.

I have purchased a couple of books on ADD/ADHD and I do suspect that this may be his case. Who diagnosis ADD/ADHD? What did you do when you were givin the diagnosis? Just wondering if you medicated or if you tried another type of intervention to help? I am very nervous about the meds that they give and have heard so much lately that kids are being diagnosed/medicated for ADD and there are other, better solutions. Any advice? We are a very plugged in, very close family. I guess that's why this is so difficult. We don't have parents to help us out and rarely get sitters. We have left him the odd time with friends (as well as his brother) and there just always seems to be something negative that happens during the course of the stay. It's very hard when we're doing this alone like this. I have a tough time talking about the possiblitly of it being ADD/ADHD with my friends b/c I fear that judgement could be placed on him (b/c they may not understand) and I don't want to be constantly saying, " oh well, he tries, but can't help himself". (My typical defensive nature when it comes to him, it seems these days). Can u relate?

MBgrl said "I am a firm believer in a proper diet. No junk food, no prepared food, no pop, no sugary cereal. If these foods are in your daily diet, try weeding them out slowly, start on veggies, salads, tuna, etc. You know what a healthy diet should consist of. Its an easy step, some kids react badly to processed foods. Good luck. "

My oldest has sensory problems and we learned very early in life that he cannot tolerate sugars and red dyes, etc. Junk food is not something that we carry in our home...the closest thing to it would be granola bars...my kids both love veggies, cooked or raw, (little guy especially loves carrots) and they both love fruit, especially apples (tho I've heard that apples may not be the best choice?).  
They also love tuna, fish of any sort, for that matter. So in terms of diet, I feel that we are doing okay. I do believe, however, that there are areas that we will need to change, that we may not even be aware of. (bread? Starches? Etc)  
I wish that I could request allergy testing, but apparently this is only done when a child experiences an allergic reaction to something. Well, allergic reactions can present themselves in ways unlike the textbook would state....

Is there any positive male role models in his life? Like a uncle or older brother? Besides his coach.  
 
A method an uncle could use is. Convince the little boy he's grown up. Example, "hey this is what grown ups do, they read." or, "hey this is what grown ups drink, milk."  
 
Then as soon he starts this roll, he'll have no idea what it is to be an adult. So this is where you start to come along and 'coach' him that what it's like to be a grown up. Example, when you see him trying to act up, say. "Grown ups do this, remember?"  
 
I think this sort of therapy works. You can give it a try with the help of a male figure around. A male figure that's frequently around in his life...  
 
Edited by Hman33, 2010-02-07 14:41:30

his dad and I are happily married. Dad is an amazing person, rock solid. But....when he thinks back to his childhood, he sees a lot of the same behaviours that he had as a kid. My husband came from very loving parents, but he had no boundaries etc. so if he did suffer from ADD/ADHD it went undiagnosed.

I know there are a lot of parents who go through the same or similar struggles with their children. Mine are similar but different as my children are 3 and under. However last year I attended some 'classes' at the Elspeth Reid centre on parenting, discipline and toilet learning(which were some of the struggles i was dealing with at the time) I would suggest looking there to see what they are offering that might be able to help you.  
 
I also agree with another poster on here that you, your husband and your sons (both) should get some counseling. If money is tight I think that your Dr can get you information on assistance (not too sure on this tho.) I have heard very good things about a children's behaviour therapist out in Shilo. His name is Richard Putteran. I am sure if you phoned him he would be able to get you information on what you should do next.  
 
You are being wise to be cautious about medications, be careful though to not avoid them altogether. If a Doctor recommends them maybe try to see another Dr. for a second opinion to be sure it is necessary.  
 
The fact that you are concerned and know there is a problem proves that you will get through this and that you ARE a good mom! I know a large group of moms who meet weekly, if you are interested in joining us and maybe seeing if there is something any of them know feel free to PM me and i will give you more details!  
 
Good luck and God bless

727-3445 would be a good first stop. They also work with your school.  
 
I understand the hesitancy of meds. however if it meant that my child would be able to function and be successful in relationships I would consider it. It must be hard on his self esteem to not get along with others. I do think I would try the diet first though.  
 
 
 

To get it down in black and white so your son can see the damage junk food does to him, start a food journal.  
 
First column starts with the date followed by the times of the day that he consumes anything including vitamin pills and the lollipop from the friend. Everything he eats must be recorded in the second column beside the time it entered his system. In the third column, record any behaviour situations, both good and bad. Have the teacher record the school work such as completed spelling test with little trouble or bothered classmates.  
 
After a week, use a green highlighter and mark out the good behaviour and the good food consumed. Use a yellow or red (pink) highlighter for junk food and bad behaviour. See if there is a correlation between food consumed and the behaviour for the next two to four hours.  
 
Milk and turkey have a protein that helps to calm people down. Increase his consumption of these items to see if there are any results. Put raw broccoli in his lunch but tell him he should not eat it until afternoon recess or he will fart all afternoon if he eats it at lunch time. It will probably be consumed at morning recess. Give the teacher the heads up so a comment about eating broccoli will be made rather than reprimanding him for farting.  

My son was the same way only he is 4 and he would throw 27inch tvs out of the entertainment unit and folded up playpens chairs etc and hed throw them at ppl i tried the corner i tried hauling him to his room he broke the door in half tried holding him in a sitting position on my lap consoling him etc nothing seemed to work well i took him in to see a behavioural specialist here in brandon i got him connected with them and he seems to be doing much better but you have to stick to the consequence you give him and follow through with it no matter what it may be also when he is throwing his full out temper tantrum kicking screaming yelling etc as long as he is not hurting anyone just ingore it he is doing it for attention it is his way of seeking the attention but doing it in the wrong way and if he sees that you are ignoring it and its not getting the response he is looking for it will gradually decrease he will get bored of that and give him alot more praise and attention when he does the good behaviour thats how i learned to deal with my son and what i was told to try out on him. try letting him sit in a special area of the house you can see him in with a book or a few toys that he enjoys and tell him to have quiet time until he feels better when he is acting out that may help as well anyways im just giving you some ideas that they gave to me and my son is making a huge improvement and he was almost to the point of being kicked out of daycare he was being so defiant so i hope that helped at all if you have any other questions feel free to message me on here

made me laugh so hard, You must really know 6 yr old boys, lol so funny, yet smart! lol

I have tried to post back but technology has gotten the better of me today.  
 
There is allot of suggestions on here and none of them in my opinion are wrong.  
 
And I can relate to your situation.  
 

mom24 said "727-3445 would be a good first stop. They also work with your school.     I understand the hesitancy of meds. however if it meant that my child would be able to function and be successful in relationships I would consider it. It must be hard on his self esteem to not get along with others. I do think I would try the diet first though.         "

Contact CATC and get him in to talk to somebody. All children go through periods of "testing" authority, but this sounds much more severe. My best friend had troubles with her son early on, very similar to what your saying, he was completely out of control. He was even kicked out of a couple of daycares in town. It wasn't until she contacted CATC and they did testing, counselling, etc., was she able to get control of him.  
 
CATC will work WITH you to find out the problems and the fixes. Medications may be necessary, but they may not. I would leave it to the professionals there to diagnose your son. Please don't wait to contact them, as I'm sure your son is no happier than you are with this situation.

the above posters have alot of merit, and alot of good ideas...however there are alot of diseases out there with the characteristics of adhd/add-they need to be explored, ask for a referral to one of the ped docs in town and start there. you need help and guidance no matter what the problem is and so does your child-the ultimate goal needs to be making life easier for HIM to cope. you also must advocate for your child and come up with some hard and fast answers-do not be put off by anyone. there is also vitamins that can help immensely with behaviour issues..flax, omega 3's to name a few, explore that route with someone knowledgable before medication depending of course on the diagnosis. also have his teacher make a journal of when he is at his worst, best, triggers etc throughout the day...

You are all such a huge support to me, I am gratefull for all of your responses. There are so many suggestions, tips, ideas, etc from you all that I feel that my hope is renewed. I was getting my boy ready to go outside and play right after my last post and I had tears stinging the backs of my eyes (as they are doing now, again). My heart breaks for him. I know this must be difficult for him and I just needed to remove myself enough out of the situation to see it for what it is....hence, the ebrandon post. I am not sure what to do first, but tomorrow morning, I have two calls to make...one to his ped dr. and the other to CATC. We'll see where we go from there. Having no family to go to is so hard, but having people like you all on here is a blessing. Thanks for taking the time to read and post.  
I'll keep checking this, the more info/help, the better!!!  
I'll let you know how things go, too.  
 

I just wanted to say that calling someone like CATC or even a child/family counsellor is a great idea! Just make sure that you do a LOT of research if a medication is suggested for your son. Sometimes behavioural issues are misdiagnosed and certain things are hard to see in children because it is not as 'cut and dry' as it may be in an adult. You may already be doing so but I would continue REALLY reinforcing good behaviour. If he cleans up after himself make sure you go out of your way to tell him what a great job he is doing. Remember to stay as calm as possible because yelling is not always a great idea. Look at his environment and make sure that there is nothing upsetting him and no one that he could be learning these behaviours from. Although he is young it would not be a bad idea to sit down with him and ask him if he is sad about something. Put it in children's terms and rule out everything before medication is my biggest piece of advice. Ask questions, get answers and just be there for your son!

Is your son eating too much junk (if at 6 y.o. he is too big to carry to his room then he sounds overweight). Could he perhaps be depressed and eats to help soothe his feelings?  
He may not be getting enough sleep? Meltdowns often occur when kids are overtired and they just lose it. (Just go to Superstore at 10pm to test this theory)  
Sounds like your son is ruling the household and has the control to make everyone stop just for him. He knows how to get your attention.  
What emotional needs is your son lacking? Be honest with yourself. Are you feeling guilty about something and just always give in to him? Does your son have some sadness/depression because of some traumatic experience in his life? Does he feel sincere love from you, his father and other family members? Kids can sense others true feelings (don't kid yourself about it- even if we say I love you we have to act like we do - all the time).  
 
When kids are behaving this way it is almost always for a reason. Behaviour occurs as the result of something in their environment. Take an honest look into your son's life. Sit down when everyone is calm and ask your son to refect on his behaviour... ask him if he is happy, ask him what makes him sad, ask him what makes him angry. Even at 6, your son will be able to answer these questions and help you figure him out. Don't be defensive to whatever he says or he will stop talking.  
 
Good luck with your son. Give him a big hug and spend time with him. And make sure his daddy is doing the same thing!

start with your pediatrician and proceed from there.  
 
Once tests have been conducted and a diagnosis made, you may then proceed from there to make educated decisions that will help your son and family.  
 
Good luck!

please in box me with a number. i would like to chat.

Nik said "Is your son eating too much junk (if at 6 y.o. he is too big to carry to his room then he sounds overweight). Could he perhaps be depressed and eats to help soothe his feelings?   He may not be getting enough sleep? Meltdowns often occur when kids are overtired and they just lose it. (Just go to Superstore at 10pm to test this theory)   Sounds like your son is ruling the household and has the control to make everyone stop just for him. He knows how to get your attention.   What emotional needs is your son lacking? Be honest with yourself. Are you feeling guilty about something and just always give in to him? Does your son have some sadness/depression because of some traumatic experience in his life? Does he feel sincere love from you, his father and other family members? Kids can sense others true feelings (don't kid yourself about it- even if we say I love you we have to act like we do - all the time).     When kids are behaving this way it is almost always for a reason. Behaviour occurs as the result of something in their environment. Take an honest look into your son's life. Sit down when everyone is calm and ask your son to refect on his behaviour... ask him if he is happy, ask him what makes him sad, ask him what makes him angry. Even at 6, your son will be able to answer these questions and help you figure him out. Don't be defensive to whatever he says or he will stop talking.     Good luck with your son. Give him a big hug and spend time with him. And make sure his daddy is doing the same thing! "

is just about 50lbs...he is a solid boy but not overweight in anyway. He craves sugar, which makes it tough to monitor when he is not with us. We dealt with this with our oldest, by telling people that he can't have it as it causes a neg've reaction in him. My oldest was able to understand and so it made it easy, as he would tell people that he couldn't have certain things that triggered his hyper-ness (red dye's especially).  
My husband and I have had heart-to-hearts with him and he never says that he is sad or that anything is bothering him. The only time that he will state anything of the sort is when he gets into trouble for misbehaving and gets caught. then he will tell lies to get out of it. The consequences for his actions are never anything that he should fear...I do not believe in instilling the fear of God in my children. I want them to not do something because they know it's wrong, not because they fear what will happen to them. I don't feel that we are lax in our parenting and we both follow through with what we state.  
As I said before, we are a very close family. All we have is us, so we spend a lot of time doing really cool stuff together. It seems that school and social interactions may be the toughest for him. When he is just with us, though he does feed off his brother (they are best friends), he is more controllable.  
I have left a journal book for his teachers to write in so that they can let me know what he did and what they did for a consequence. The school has had a recent, quite large influx of immigrants and the teacher feels that a lot of the behaviours may be because of this. She tells me that a few of the other children have been seeking negative behaviours as a result of the large class size as there are quite a few children who are misbehaving, disrupting the class.  
I have asked him a number of times if he feels frustrated about anything. Lately I've become more specific and have asked him if he gets frustrated when he does things that get him into trouble and maybe he doesn't understand why. He said nope. I am not sure that he has the words to clearly translay what is going on inside him. We draw pictures of different emotions and then he draws a picture of how he is feeling, and he always draws happy.  
He is a very affectionate little boy, always hugging and kissing us. It's heartbreaking when he gets thrown out of sorts because he has such big emotions and he gets his feelings hurt very easily.  
We've often wondered if it's his emotions...that maybe he is trying to keep up with his older brother, but doesn't understand the emotions behind it.  
This may sound like I'm being defensive, but I strongly feel that he is misunderstood by other parents when we get together for play dates. Because he seems to have difficultly with tact (of coarse, he is only 6), he will say what ever is on his mind...as will most children. We have always supported our kids' honesty and have never made them feel bad for things that they want to talk about. We strongly support positive reinforcement and have tried to ignore negative behaviours as much as possible. This is when play dates get tough. Other parents that I am around seem to think that discipline needs to be immediate and must be enough that the child doesn't want to do it again. I choose to take my son away from the situation and have a talk with him b/c I don't believe in public humiliation. Yes, I've been judged for my method. I don't believe that this is what is causing his behaviours, though. If we are guilty of something, it's that we love him bigger than life and he for sure knows it. Again, this is what makes it difficult to be experiencing this, on both ends.  
Tonight, we had a "dance night" and all of us were dancing like crazies...was a blast...I was the paparazzi. All ofa sudden, my youngest seemed to think that my oldest was getting more attention (I think that is what was going on) and he ran up to his room crying. We left him, he came back down and my husband talked to him. He said that I hurt his finger when we were dancing. Yet, we hadn't danced together in for about 10 minutes before he ran off. Made no sense that we could figure so again, I wonder if this is b/c he can't articulate what is really going on within his emotions.

 
 
Edited by Save~sirreF, 2010-02-07 21:06:56

We had a son whowas exactly like you described.We we're at wits end with him as well. Then we set up an appointment at the CATC centre where he was enrolled in a social skills program to teach him how to react to certain situations in a social setting. It took alot of meetings at the centre and alot of team work with the school and alot of years of problems but it all worked out. He is now 14 and the problems of endded. Now and again he tries but he knows it is wrong and the conflict is ended. Also, I found that once he was old enough to come home for lunch on his own and stopped buying juice boxes with dyes even though they have real juice there is still dyes.I still watch the juices or treats with tartrazine which is a yellow dye that gives a reaction that they cannot explain why they react. My son was also a bigger boy and hard to carry off to his room and used it as a vantage point.At school he was always blamed for things that was brought on by others. I was always told that he is your child and no matter what he is always right they need to know that you are there for them no matter what.Also, a really good conversation with your child ask him questions let him as questions take the time to find out what is wrong.But the CATC is a good place to start.PM if you have any questions.